Part of what makes Smash's controls work is that the system is universal, some characters have unique inputs (Samus getting different variants of missile based on tilting vs flicking the stick, Inkling having a vital move on shield + special), but you always know what to press to use your core moveset. While in other fighting games it's hard to figure out what you need to press, you can maybe work backwards if you see the move, but that requires watching somebody else do it, and most arcade FGs don't throw you into a mirror match right away if at all.
Also Smash Bros came up with its input system in a time where arcade fighters had pretzel and pentagram inputs, modern no motion input games are making them in a time where the shoryuken motion and a 360 are the most complex input a contemporary fighting game will ask of you. And League of Legends is pretty standardized last I checked in terms of how many abilities someone has, so it'd make sense to copy that standardization, which would lead to the same solution Smash already invented.
I wish developers would stop beating up the largely misblamed motion inputs and put that effort into making tutorials that are good.
Also total side note, but there's an indie game called Motionsickness that makes fun of the motion control debate by going out of its way to have as many overly complicated motion inputs as possible. Because let's be real, what major fighting game these days doesn't offer 'simplified controls for new players making the game easy to learn hard to master'.
It's a shame Fantasy Strike flopped so hard. It's the only beginner-focused fighting game that's actually easy to learn and play, and it teaches some fundamental fighting game skills. It's also a lot more fun than 2XKO.
But yeah, an eight button tag fighter with grooves/styles and two different types of parries is the perfect place to start as a beginner. Just install the Vanguard spyware and you're on your way to fighting game bliss.
2xko is my first fighter game outside of some mortal kombat while partying. To me the mj system felt extremely clunky, while 2x feels responsive.
I know the characters from league and enjoy their gameplay.
I don't know how to explain it, not sure if it even can be but after like 5 hours the controls did just click for me, though obviously I did not indulge in the analisys like you did, with which I agree, it is a scattered mess. Still I felt like it kinda made sense, though that may be the rts player in me justifying the unjustifiable.
The lobby system is way cooler and truly fun (kinda weird an adjective to use on something such as a lobby).
I think I agree with all of that. I've only played 10ish hours of 2XKO, and half of the Sidekick changes are minor once you're familiar with the other Fuses. But....I also got annoyed at how long that list of changes was and didn't want to finish it. And I'm a guy who plays board games and engages with effortposts about fighting game controls.
The Fuses are like a spectrum of how much you can tag (and several correspond to certain other tag systems, like CVS2 grooves), but it's not as 1-to-1. And the different between 2X and Frestyle isn't as stark as the difference between some grooves in other games. And definitely less intuitive for new players than say Alpha Isms.
A modern game with a simple to understand and yet impactful groove system is of course Ultra Fight DA! Kyanta 2. Although most characters do only have a few viable grooves, usually Stamina, Super, and then one of the other 4.
2xko is my first fighter game outside of some mortal kombat while partying. To me the mj system felt extremely clunky, while 2x feels responsive.
I know the characters from league and enjoy their gameplay.
I don't know how to explain it, not sure if it even can be but after like 5 hours the controls did just click for me, though obviously I did not indulge in the analisys like you did, with which I agree, it is a scattered mess. Still I felt like it kinda made sense, though that may be the rts player in me justifying the unjustifiable.
The lobby system is way cooler and truly fun (kinda weird an adjective to use on something such as a lobby).
PS I accidentally commented twice, sorry for that, thought substack was rioting my attempts to post it
I think that this is an excellent summary of the issue.
Also, purely as an aside - this is the game they've been making since the announcement in early 2019? Almost six years to release 10 characters and a fighting system that doesn't advance the genre in nearly any meaningful way? Real Bioshock Infinite vibes going on here.
When they first announced it it was a 1-on-1 fighting game. At some point it was soft-rebooted - made into a tag fighter and the art style was changed.
On the other hand 2019 is when they announced the game, but they acquired the makers of Rising Thunder in 2016, so it's been in the works for quite a while...
I think they're too ticky-tacky and hard to explain.
A lot of fighting games have pre-match futzing around - choosing your assists in Marvel vs Capcom, choosing ratios in Capcom vs SNK 2, etc.
I think at best the Fuse system is comparable to choosing Grooves in CVS2, or choosing "-isms" in Street Fighter Alpha 3. But both of those are IMO more substantial - different Grooves in CVS2 change what abilities you have (parry, just defense), how your super meter works, etc. I think Isms and Grooves are also easier to explain - "in Capcom vs SNK 2 K-Groove makes your character play like they're from a Samurai Showdown (plus Mark of the Wolves), choosing S groove makes them play like they're from an old King of Fighters, and choosing P makes them play like they're a Street Fighter 3 character." Alpha 3 is similar with the -isms, where X-ism is old-school Street Fighter rules.
Choosing grooves / isms also changed the look of your super meter so those changes felt substantial.
Fuses feel less meaningful than those in terms of the scope of what they do, and are harder to explain.
Maybe these rules make sense balance-wise but it reads like a collection of various disconnected rules. In Capcom vs SNK 2 and Alpha 3 the various modes are more understandable since they reference previous games.
"In Capcom vs SNK 2 you can play as a bunch of different Capcom and SNK characters, and you can choose which source game they play like" is a reasonable pitch. It's just hard for me to imagine selling 2XKO with "you can choose from different Fuses, which changes how the game plays, For example in one mode you only play as one character but they're stronger, and in another mode you also play as only one character but you still have access to assists."
Maybe these different Fuses are very meaningful when you're playing the game, but I don't think they *sound* particularly meaningful. (outside of Juggernaut) Fuses strike me as like the Street Fighter x Tekken gem system in that it's hard to explain and represents (again outside of Juggernaut) low-level fussy changes rather than big high-level changes.
Part of what makes Smash's controls work is that the system is universal, some characters have unique inputs (Samus getting different variants of missile based on tilting vs flicking the stick, Inkling having a vital move on shield + special), but you always know what to press to use your core moveset. While in other fighting games it's hard to figure out what you need to press, you can maybe work backwards if you see the move, but that requires watching somebody else do it, and most arcade FGs don't throw you into a mirror match right away if at all.
Also Smash Bros came up with its input system in a time where arcade fighters had pretzel and pentagram inputs, modern no motion input games are making them in a time where the shoryuken motion and a 360 are the most complex input a contemporary fighting game will ask of you. And League of Legends is pretty standardized last I checked in terms of how many abilities someone has, so it'd make sense to copy that standardization, which would lead to the same solution Smash already invented.
I wish developers would stop beating up the largely misblamed motion inputs and put that effort into making tutorials that are good.
Also total side note, but there's an indie game called Motionsickness that makes fun of the motion control debate by going out of its way to have as many overly complicated motion inputs as possible. Because let's be real, what major fighting game these days doesn't offer 'simplified controls for new players making the game easy to learn hard to master'.
It's a shame Fantasy Strike flopped so hard. It's the only beginner-focused fighting game that's actually easy to learn and play, and it teaches some fundamental fighting game skills. It's also a lot more fun than 2XKO.
But yeah, an eight button tag fighter with grooves/styles and two different types of parries is the perfect place to start as a beginner. Just install the Vanguard spyware and you're on your way to fighting game bliss.
2xko is my first fighter game outside of some mortal kombat while partying. To me the mj system felt extremely clunky, while 2x feels responsive.
I know the characters from league and enjoy their gameplay.
I don't know how to explain it, not sure if it even can be but after like 5 hours the controls did just click for me, though obviously I did not indulge in the analisys like you did, with which I agree, it is a scattered mess. Still I felt like it kinda made sense, though that may be the rts player in me justifying the unjustifiable.
The lobby system is way cooler and truly fun (kinda weird an adjective to use on something such as a lobby).
I think I agree with all of that. I've only played 10ish hours of 2XKO, and half of the Sidekick changes are minor once you're familiar with the other Fuses. But....I also got annoyed at how long that list of changes was and didn't want to finish it. And I'm a guy who plays board games and engages with effortposts about fighting game controls.
The Fuses are like a spectrum of how much you can tag (and several correspond to certain other tag systems, like CVS2 grooves), but it's not as 1-to-1. And the different between 2X and Frestyle isn't as stark as the difference between some grooves in other games. And definitely less intuitive for new players than say Alpha Isms.
A modern game with a simple to understand and yet impactful groove system is of course Ultra Fight DA! Kyanta 2. Although most characters do only have a few viable grooves, usually Stamina, Super, and then one of the other 4.
2xko is my first fighter game outside of some mortal kombat while partying. To me the mj system felt extremely clunky, while 2x feels responsive.
I know the characters from league and enjoy their gameplay.
I don't know how to explain it, not sure if it even can be but after like 5 hours the controls did just click for me, though obviously I did not indulge in the analisys like you did, with which I agree, it is a scattered mess. Still I felt like it kinda made sense, though that may be the rts player in me justifying the unjustifiable.
The lobby system is way cooler and truly fun (kinda weird an adjective to use on something such as a lobby).
PS I accidentally commented twice, sorry for that, thought substack was rioting my attempts to post it
No problem!
I think that this is an excellent summary of the issue.
Also, purely as an aside - this is the game they've been making since the announcement in early 2019? Almost six years to release 10 characters and a fighting system that doesn't advance the genre in nearly any meaningful way? Real Bioshock Infinite vibes going on here.
When they first announced it it was a 1-on-1 fighting game. At some point it was soft-rebooted - made into a tag fighter and the art style was changed.
On the other hand 2019 is when they announced the game, but they acquired the makers of Rising Thunder in 2016, so it's been in the works for quite a while...
Could you get into why you don't think Fuses are a significant differentiator? My first thought reading that section was, "Why wouldn't Fuses count?"
I think they're too ticky-tacky and hard to explain.
A lot of fighting games have pre-match futzing around - choosing your assists in Marvel vs Capcom, choosing ratios in Capcom vs SNK 2, etc.
I think at best the Fuse system is comparable to choosing Grooves in CVS2, or choosing "-isms" in Street Fighter Alpha 3. But both of those are IMO more substantial - different Grooves in CVS2 change what abilities you have (parry, just defense), how your super meter works, etc. I think Isms and Grooves are also easier to explain - "in Capcom vs SNK 2 K-Groove makes your character play like they're from a Samurai Showdown (plus Mark of the Wolves), choosing S groove makes them play like they're from an old King of Fighters, and choosing P makes them play like they're a Street Fighter 3 character." Alpha 3 is similar with the -isms, where X-ism is old-school Street Fighter rules.
Choosing grooves / isms also changed the look of your super meter so those changes felt substantial.
Fuses feel less meaningful than those in terms of the scope of what they do, and are harder to explain.
The description of Sidekick is hard to summarize: https://wiki.play2xko.com/en-us/Sidekick
Maybe these rules make sense balance-wise but it reads like a collection of various disconnected rules. In Capcom vs SNK 2 and Alpha 3 the various modes are more understandable since they reference previous games.
"In Capcom vs SNK 2 you can play as a bunch of different Capcom and SNK characters, and you can choose which source game they play like" is a reasonable pitch. It's just hard for me to imagine selling 2XKO with "you can choose from different Fuses, which changes how the game plays, For example in one mode you only play as one character but they're stronger, and in another mode you also play as only one character but you still have access to assists."
Maybe these different Fuses are very meaningful when you're playing the game, but I don't think they *sound* particularly meaningful. (outside of Juggernaut) Fuses strike me as like the Street Fighter x Tekken gem system in that it's hard to explain and represents (again outside of Juggernaut) low-level fussy changes rather than big high-level changes.